Dubai Al-Arabiyah Television in Arabic at 1905 GMT on 26 April 2004 carries a new episode of its 55-minute program "From Iraq" presented by Elie Nakuzi. The episode discusses the rehabilitation of some former Ba'th Party members to positions in the government and the new Iraqi government, which is to be formed with the exclusion of many members of the current Iraqi Governing Council, IGC. Nakuzi says these topics will be discussed with US Civil Administrator of Iraq Paul Bremer and IGC member Dr Ahmad Chalabi. To begin with, Nakuzi presents a video report prepared by Jawad Kazim on the steps taken so far to dissolve the Iraqi army and then rehabilitate certain members of it.
Nakuzi interviews IGC Member Dr Ahmad Chalabi live from Baghdad via satellite on the decision to rehabilitate some Ba'th Party members. Nakuzi asks whether Chalabi truly believes that the rehabilitation of some Ba'th Party members who did not commit crimes in Iraq would be like restoring some Nazi party members in Germany. Chalabi says the policy of "rooting" out Ba'th Party members continues in Iraq, and a ranking Ba'th Party member will never be rehabilitated or restored to any position in the government. He says the policy of rooting out Ba'th Party members continues to apply. He explains that some teachers will be rehabilitated to their former jobs, but that the media have "blown this decision out of proportion." Nakuzi says Bremer's decision also included the rehabilitation of members of the military. Chalabi answers that Ba'thists who did not commit crimes are welcome to be part of Iraqi society.
Chalabi says: "Rooting out the Ba'thists applies to those who are members of a division, a subdivision, branch, or regional command. We do not want the members of the Ba'th Party who did not commit crimes to have to bear the burden of punitive measures for crimes committed by the members of the criminal party." He continues: "We want the members of the Ba'th Party who did not commit crimes and did not reach high positions to be a part of Iraqi society and to have the same rights as all other Iraqis."
On the issue of tolerance and forgiveness, as well as the matter of national reconciliation and truth exposure, which some say Chalabi is opposed to, Chalabi says: "We are for forgiveness and we call for a policy of total forgiveness in Iraq, but not for reconciliation." He explains that there can be no reconciliation with former Ba'th Party members who committed crimes, killed people, and buried them in mass graves. The rest of the Ba'th Party members are welcome. Nakuzi asks Chalabi about a report in the Washington Post on 25 April that an agreement has been reached between the United Nations and the US Administration that IGC members are going to be marginalized in the future Iraqi government, foremost of whom is himself. Chalabi says he read the Post report, "but I believe this kind of talk is far removed from reality and has nothing to do with what will happen in Iraq." He dismisses Lakhdar Brahimi's ability to fire any member of the IGC, all of whom are patriotic and powerful figures. He argues that the next Iraqi government will be appointed by the IGC and the coalition powers together, and the UN will play "a consultative role if the parties want it to do so."
Chalabi says the Iraqi people are grateful to President Bush for liberating Iraq. "This, however, does not mean that the Iraqi people welcome occupation. The Iraqi people understand liberation and reject occupation. We told them this before the war and we asked them to help us form a provisional Iraqi government that assumes authority and contributes toward the liberation of Iraq." He says they wanted to proceed in a different manner. He explains that the coalition powers announced a month and a half after they invaded Iraq that they were an occupying power, which was rejected by the Iraqi people. He stresses that the Iraqi people need to elect their own rulers. He talks about the mechanism established in the State Administration Law for appointing the future government of Iraq. This law states that the IGC, in consultation with the Coalition Authority, will appoint the Iraqi government to govern as of 30 June 2004, and "the role of the UN will be consultative. So if they ask us to violate this law, we will insist on it," Chalabi states.
On his tense relationship with Bremer and whether this is the beginning of a "mutiny" by the Iraqis against the Coalition Authority, Chalabi says: "My relations with Ambassador Bremer are good." They may differ on some points, he clarifies, but there is no "mutiny." "We have differences in viewpoints; yes we do disagree with them. We may be weaker than they are, but we are not subservient or lowly." On his criticisms of Ambassador Bremer, Chalabi says the Bremer is implementing his government's policy, which could be changed in Washington without being approved in Baghdad. Therefore, there is a natural tension between the Coalition Authority, which is an occupation authority, and the representatives of the Iraqi people. He says: "We solve this natural tension through dialogue." He praises Bremer for initiating the process of uprooting the Ba'th Party members. Chalabi admits that this process came about based on his own request submitted to Bremer. Nakuzi argues that this may not have been a wise decision and it may have been wiser to reward the Ba'th Party members and soldiers who abandoned the army and the party and did not fight.
On where he believes Ambassador Bremer has erred, he says there are differences between him and Bremer on minor details, such as appointing ministry undersecretaries. He says there is disagreement over how fast things should be implemented too, meaning that Chalabi wants some appointments to be made sooner than Bremer wants, while Bremer argues that Iraqis are not ready to assume such positions. Chalabi says: "What we have witnessed in Iraq in the recent weeks is the collapse of the US security plan, which they established for the Iraqis. This plan has collapsed because those who were chosen and sent for training to Jordan or elsewhere did not perform their duties. But there were bodies that were established with the cooperation of Iraqis who did perform their duties." He says those who want to serve the new Iraq must be opposed to Saddam and his policies. On the resignation of Interior Minister Nuri Badran, Chalabi says Badran had decided to resign three months ago. His resignation has nothing to do with the policy toward security in Iraq. Chalabi says: "We all support the prevalence of the law in Iraq. This means that no person is above the law. This also means that Iraqi law, after sovereignty is transferred to the Iraqis, will apply to all."
On the issue of Muqtada al-Sadr and how the law is not being implemented there, Chalabi says: "Implementing Iraqi law should not be a US military goal. It should be an established Iraqi matter." He reiterates: "We believe that the law should prevail in Iraq and be master in Iraq. We actually demand this. However, when should the law be applied, and should this law be a US military goal that requires sending airplanes and tanks in order to implement an arrest warrant for a charge that falls under Iraqi law?" He stresses that the Al-Sadr problem can be solved through implementation of Iraqi law in accordance with Iraqi measures after Iraq gets its sovereignty. This issue should be distinct from a US military target.
On reports in the press that Bush is angry with him, Chalabi says this is not the first time there has been talk about Bush being angry with him. He says they differ with the Americans a lot over many things, due to the different agendas that the two sides have. "We agree with them when our interests agree, and we part from them when our interests part," he says. He expresses his gratitude to the United States for having liberated Iraq, but says Iraqis want their sovereignty back as soon as possible. On reports that he has files that can expose corruption and scandals within the CPA in Iraq, Chalabi says: "We do not follow stories about corruption in the CPA and the Iraqi administration. This does not concern us now. We are working on constructing a new Iraq." He says there is no country in the world that does not have excesses of the law, but such matters can be discussed and investigated freely now, while this was not possible under Saddam Husayn. He concludes his interview by categorically stating that he is not a candidate for any position in the new Iraqi government.
Nakuzi continues the program with an interview with American Civil Administrator of Iraq Paul Bremer. He begins this section with a video report prepared by Diyar al-Umari in Baghdad on the military situation in Iraq. Nakuzi asks Bremer about the change of heart he has expressed recently regarding rehabilitating some former members of the Ba'th Party to the Ministry of Education and the military. Bremer says US policy has not changed, but the United States needed time to ascertain that the Ba'thists cannot influence the future of Iraq anymore. On the Washington Post report that the Americans will be excluding the IGC members from the coming government, particularly Dr Ahmad Chalabi, Bremer explains the process that was used for selecting the IGC through dialogue. The IGC members are now holding consultations with various sides and with Mr Brahimi. The objective is to involve the largest number of Iraqi people possible. He says: "We don't know whether Ahmad Chalabi will be withdrawing or not, but we must wait until consultations are over."
Nakuzi says: "So Mr Chalabi is no longer the strongest ally you have, as he was before?" Bremer answers that they will have to move very carefully in Iraq and listen to all opinions in the country before reaching any decision regarding the provisional government. He calls for focusing on the elections in Iraq. On whether he is disappointed with the IGC, Bremer says the IGC has contributed immensely toward the future of Iraq and should be proud of its contributions. On negotiations with Al-Sadr, Bremer says the rule of law should prevail in Iraq. All Iraqis are equal before the law and Al-Sadr is accused of carrying out certain illegal acts. His forces are trying to fight the establishment of stability in Iraq, so he must face trial for the crimes he is charged with committing. He asks Al-Sadr to hand himself over to justice and cooperate with the Americans. Nakuzi asks what will happen if he doesn't, and Bremer says there isn't much to be said or discussed about the operations the Americans could carry out in the case where Al-Sadr does not hand himself over. On the situation in Al-Fallujah, Bremer says the Americans are not fighting the people in Al-Fallujah. He says the fighters in Al-Fallujah are supporters of the former regime in Iraq -- some are foreigners from abroad, some are terrorists with links to Al-Zarqawi, and some are mercenaries trying to disrupt the establishment of democracy in Iraq.
Translated from the original by WNC.
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